From Kathmandu to Kabul: Prem Awasthi

Hi everyone. Thanks for listening to this first episode of Nepal Now: On the Move. I know there are literally millions of podcasts out there competing for your listening time, so I appreciate that you chose this one.

My name is Marty Logan. I’m a Canadian journalist who has lived in Nepal’s capital Kathmandu on and off since 2005. You can reach me with feedback on anything you hear on Nepal Now or ideas for guests at nepalnowpod(at)gmail.com.

If you’re not familiar with the show, Nepal Now has been around for a while — I published more than 60 episodes from June 2020 to June 2023. And here we are again.

Why am I back? you might be wondering. You can listen to the new trailer for a full explanation. The short answer is that I think I still have something to contribute to informing people — both Nepalis and foreigners — about this country and I think I’ve found a way to make it more engaging.

To jump right in, today we’re speaking with Prem Awasthi. Prem worked for the United Nations in Nepal for 18 years, dealing with the growing number of humanitarian emergencies in the country. In December 2023 he moved to Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan. I caught up with him just hours before his flight left Kathmandu. We talked about the many practicalities of going as well as why he was leaving, and if it’s a good thing that so many people are migrating from Nepal. 

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Music by audionautix.com.

Thank you to the Association of Community Radio Broadcasters of Nepal and Himal Media for use of their studios.

Transcript

Prem: 0:00

Nepal is in a transition, I would say, because, you know, the aspirations are also high, definitely I want to contribute a lot. But at the same time, I want to at least look, you know, beyond Nepal, what is happening and expand my horizon. So that is mainly my motivation.

Marty: 0:35

Hi everyone. Thanks for listening to this first episode of Nepal Now On The Move. I know there are literally millions of podcasts out there competing for your listening time. So I appreciate that you chose this one. My name is Marty Logan. I'm a Canadian journalist who has lived in Nepal's capital, Kathmandu, on and off since 2005. You can reach me with feedback on anything you hear on Nepal Now, or ideas for guests. at nepalnowpod, P O D, at gmail. com. If you're not familiar with the show, Nepal Now has been around for a while. I've published more than 60 episodes from June 2020 to June 2023. And here we are again. Why am I back? you might be wondering. You can listen to the new trailer for a full explanation. The short answer is that I think I still have something to contribute to informing people, both Nepalis and foreigners, about this country, and I think I've found a way to make it more engaging. To jump right in, today we're speaking with Prem Awasthi. Prem worked for the United Nations in Nepal for 18 years, dealing with the growing number of humanitarian emergencies in the country.. In December 2023, he moved to Kabul, the capital of Afghanistan. I caught up with him just hours before his flight left Kathmandu. We talked about the many practicalities of going, as well as why he was leaving, and if it's a good thing that so many people are migrating from Nepal. Take a listen now to our chat. Prem Awasthi, welcome to the podcast.

Prem: 2:26

Thank you. Thank you, Marty. It's a pleasure and I'm really pleased to talk with you.

Marty: 2:31

Great. I'm happy you came. as, as we'll talk about later, you're very busy, especially today. So I really appreciate you coming. So we've just met a few days back. so I'm doubly happy that you were able to make time today. And I really don't know much about you except what we talked about the other day, which was very much focused on, on the earthquake and what happened after the earthquake in Jajarkot. But for this, today, just tell me a little bit about your background, like where you're from in Nepal, where you went to school, that kind of thing.

Prem: 3:03

Thank you, Marty. actually, I was reflecting when you were asking the question, my life is on the move and my journey began almost, 30 years ago, when I left, my village in Doti, Sudurpaschim, Once it used to be very prosperous, that's what we've been told, but currently, you know, it's a very remote, isolated area. My schooling, was from Doti. So I did my SLC, which is 10th grade, from Doti. I was grown up, brought up, in Doti. And during my initial days for grade one, two, maybe I was walking more than two hours just to make, one way, two hours to commute, the school. And then I moved, to Bhairahawa for my intermediate, schooling. And then from there to Chitwan, I did my bachelor's. So since then, I'm like, migrating here and there. so it's been more than 18 years that I worked, with the UN. in a humanitarian, in a development setting. So that's briefly about myself.

Marty: 4:22

Okay. Yeah. So it sounds like you've been on the move a long time. And your family is still, some of them in Doti or everyone has left

Prem: 4:31

Some of my childhood friends, they are still in Doti. My immediate family, my parents, my brother, all they left. As like, lot of population are on the move, moving from hill to Terai is quite, normal over the last 30, 40 years.

Marty: 4:46

Yeah, yeah. Just for curiosity, because I've been through Doti on my way to Achham. I remember driving through there and I thought it was very beautiful, like so many parts of Nepal, is your village close to the road or is it a long way off that main highway?

Prem: 5:02

It's close to road. I mean, now there is a bridge. It's like a 10-15 minutes walk from a road. Earlier it used to be like, you know, this side was road, another side was my trail. It's, it's really beautiful along the river valley. And stunning that is the most beautiful place, always in my heart and mind.

Marty: 5:26

Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Home is home, right? Home will always be home no matter where you are. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I agree. I agree. okay. So then. to today. You said now 18 years you've been working with the UN. And this links to why I met you the other day. We were talking about the recent earthquake centered in Jajarkot and then the response to the earthquake by the various a huge section of Nepali and international society, including obviously the UN and these other big organizations. And so your role in, in that, and in terms of other emergencies is, is very important. So you're in the human, well, you explain it.

Prem: 6:08

Yeah, I mean, it was important. Quite important, demanding and challenging tasks that I had to perform with UN in Nepal, mainly coordinating with different actors, mostly the international actor, which includes Red Cross movement, international NGOs, different UN organizations. UN is a big family. There are different, like, sectoral, specific organization. And another task was interfacing with government. So regularly on behalf of senior UN officials interfacing, communicating with the government, and also sitting, day in, day out with the government planning, on the response. And before, you know, any emergency working on a daily basis on emergency preparedness part. So it includes different layers of government, particularly the provincial and the federal government. And within the federal government, there are different entities, so this was my task, mainly with the UN in Nepal.

Marty: 7:15

Okay. And I think it's fairly clear that now there are more events, emergency kind of events, a lot of them related to climate and weather, right? More regularly we seem to be hearing about landslides or seeing landslides, flooding, I guess the earthquakes are a different type of emergency. Were you busier as the years went by in terms of response or?

Prem: 7:39

Absolutely. I mean, the cold is getting intense, even if it's for limited period and heat is getting intense, which was not that, you know, major hazard in past. Those season used to be like sort of down. and monsoon is always, been most hazardous particularly up in the hills. you may have seen everywhere, road construction, even, you know, not proper engineering or indigenous technologies. So that has also significantly contributed. So yeah, in terms of different natural hazards and responding to the humanitarian consequences, throughout the year, it's been quite busy. I mean, it depends on the scale and magnitude, but there is always something hazardous events across the country,

Marty: 8:31

Right, okay. And so we're, we're not going to talk too much more about your job because we're talking more about your, your life. But one other question that I think kind of links or in my mind, when I imagine this conversation, links the work and what you're doing personally is: With all of these events, did you find that people within Nepal are also like moving? People who are affected by an earthquake or by flooding or whatever? Are they likely to pick up and move or is it almost always just a temporary displacement?

Prem: 9:03

People are on the move. Let me give you one example. I was in Bhojpur District, Arun Gaupalika it was back in 2017. I asked newly elected chairperson, what is the main problem? And the chairperson was saying the invasion of monkeys is, is a problem because, the forest cover has increased because people were not growing. There were a lot of bushes and people were on the move. So that kind of, you know, villages becoming empty is seen across the country. And even through my eyes I have seen a lot of, people moving to either an urban area in the hills or moving down to Terai. So it's amazing, if you see the number of people moving. It depends. Once they have like a certain amount of money that they can at least rent out or buy a piece of land, that they usually choose to move, because of different reasons for education or for aspiration of better life. or, you know, for employment. So there are different reason, but, internal migration is, is a major kind of phenomena. And so is, you know, like labour migration and other migration that, we see every day.

Marty: 10:30

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I've heard so much of this, recently. I mean, the amount of people talking about moving, all sorts of movement is, is is growing and growing, and that's why we're talking right now today. And okay, so now you, you're also moving, After 18 years at the UN, and you're moving, so where are you going, and when are you going?

Prem: 10:54

Actually, I am traveling tonight. after a few hours.

Marty: 10:59

This is the very last minute.

Prem: 11:00

Last minute, but, pleased to talk with you, and, I mean, migration is, quite, interesting and we all are migrants in one way or other. And it's good. I mean, I recall my first time when I left my village. I was always curious person. So everything was new for me, even tree, plant, landscape, you know, even in the same district traveling from one village to another was fascinating. I was so amazed to see. And when I came to the Terai, first time, seeing flat land everywhere was incredible. I can't explain my feeling. I think I should write one day. And then, you know, when I came first time in Kathmandu, again, it was, everything was new for me. And then I travel abroad. So many things were new, culture, people. And I'm always curious to learn. And travel is a great form of learning. Through travel, you can learn about food, culture, geography, history, different things. So I'm moving to Kabul, tonight, So I will be there at least for a year, working with UN. And I'm interested to learn. And also, you know for the greater humanity, for a good cause. I want to use my skill, knowledge, ability. So it's like a mutual benefit, you know? So my skills are also used. And importantly, I also get to learn a lot of things, and maybe it will expand my horizon. I'm sure that working, in my society, speaking same language, you know, eating same food that I ate from childhood and then going into the completely new context is, definitely that will give me a good, good horizon, new insight. So I'm really excited.

Marty: 13:11

Okay, that's, that's a huge move. I mean, it's South Asia still, so in a sense, you know, geographically, it's, it's not that far, but it is far in so many ways, right? I mean, obviously Kabul is a place that's having a lot of difficulties in terms of governance, in terms of human rights, et cetera, et cetera. There are food issues, humanitarian issues, obviously, and it's also a fascinating place. It's at the crossroads of so many civilizations and its history is, you know, even going back beyond the recent history of the 21st and 20th centuries, it's so interesting in terms of the people who have lived there and, and it's a place I would love to visit one day for sure. Was it hard to make a decision to go to Kabul? I mean, was it, were you, are you worried about also going to Kabul or for you, is it much more of a positive than a negative?

Prem: 14:13

I mean, overall, I was positive, but transition is not easy. It's always difficult, you know, transitioning from comfort zone to something, you know, new. There are a lot of, you know, like a different feeling, doubts, perhaps. And, I was working in a very comfort zone, close to family, close to friends, and going into there was some, you know, mixed feeling. But, overall I was positive because, you know, the incentive was at least contributing at the global, or regional... I feel proud myself that I got this opportunity, not only to serve my country or, you know, the society I born in, but, you know, at least using my skill set at the regional global level, which is really a proud moment for me. So that was number one motivation. And another was learning. Definitely reading book is one sort of learning, but experiencing feeling is, is, really a good, good learning, which I believe in. And my learning curve is also, feeling, touching. so with that, I can expand my horizon. Still, you know, I have to manage transition, not easy decision, I would say, a decision that I need to take.

Marty: 15:39

Okay. So I want to ask you more about what exactly you'll be doing when you get there. But first, so you mentioned family. you going with family or you're going alone? And then how difficult is, obviously even if you're going with family, you can't go with all your family. So how difficult is it to leave your family? what are they saying about you moving?

Prem: 15:57

I'm going alone. I have two daughters, wife, we live together, here in Kathmandu Valley. So, not easy decision, because I will be missing them. but yeah, I will be often visiting-every four to six weeks I will be coming back to visit family, spend some time. Ultimately, we have to take a decision, whether at household level or in a career or, you know, in a bigger society level. So yeah, sometimes tough decisions, sometimes kind of a very easy decision. And yeah, it was, It was quite tough, like a catch- 22 situation. one way, I mean, my passion was like, you know, to contribute at the larger scale and also to explore, which was a good, good opportunity. And after working, almost more than 18 years, also it was time for me to to look into what is beyond the, the, the national boundary and one way like, move is good and another like reconciling with, with the situation and accommodating with, it. So family been quite adaptive, really grateful, with that and also, yeah, even it was tough I have to take a decision.

Marty: 17:28

YEah. It's never easy to leave people behind, right? I mean, as much as you look forward to what's coming and that part will be exciting and new and all of that. It's never something you want to do, leaving people behind for sure. So when you get there, what exactly will you be doing? What's your role?

Prem: 17:44

My role will be coordination. I had a skill and also expertise, which I developed over almost a decade. Here in Nepal, over the last few years, I was mostly focused on humanitarian, but there it will be more peacebuilding, also navigating through the political process. There is a big, UN mission there so I will be working with a different section within that mission. so bringing everyone together, is, is my job there. So it's, monitoring, evaluation, planning, coordination. So these are the main functions that I will be performing there.

Marty: 18:40

obviously you know the recent history of Afghanistan and how difficult things have been for decades now. so you're working on peace in Afghanistan, it won't be easy, obviously, although now there is no large scale conflict. but with that government there, which is not even internationally recognized as a government by by many entities, right, it's a very kind of fragile, sensitive situation, and I guess more political than what you've been doing. How do you feel about that side of it? not so much a practical, logistical challenge, much more kind of a governance, political kind of role, no?

Prem: 19:28

Yeah, no, I mean, you are right. But my job, I will get to know exactly what I will be doing on a day to day basis based on my you know, as of now, I'm prepared mostly for the coordination, like, you know, acting as a glue and, bringing all pieces together. so that kind of role, I think on, on a peace building or political or humanitarian, there will be experts there. So I don't, I think, be providing the expertise services per se on a peace building and other, but, my role will be a planning officer there. So, you know, bringing all together and having more coherence and coordinated, element in planning, in, in the monitoring, in, in evaluation. So that will be my role. I will get, to know. Yeah, it will be a good learning opportunity for me also in a fragile context, how the governance, how the peace building part, which is quite important and also most challenging, I mean, if we see the recent history there, so it will be kind of a good, good learning for me. Perhaps we can talk when I have a good experience from there.

Marty: 20:50

I hope so. Yeah, I'm hoping we can actually talk before that. Maybe after a month when you're there, just to check in and see, see how things are going. Obviously, you'll still be, as they say, finding your feet and, and, and getting settled. So you'll be based in Kabul. Will you get to travel do you know, or?

Prem: 21:09

I will be based in Kabul. I think I will, I will travel. There are different, UN mission field offices. So at least I'll be traveling, but not extensive field travel that I used to do in Nepal. In Nepal, I traveled, 74 districts out of 77. Only Manang, Mustang, and Darchula are remaining.

Marty: 21:35

Well, you're coming back every four to six weeks. You can check them out, but I'm sure you will sometime in your life get to those three. You haven't been to Afghanistan before?

Prem: 21:43

No, I never. This is my first time, I'm excited.

Marty: 21:46

Yeah, yeah. No doubt. No doubt. Like I said, it's a place I'd really like to visit. And maybe one day. so you, you contributed a lot to Nepal, right? You were in a role where you were working for Nepal. Obviously, there are lots of things to do here as there are in every country, but certainly in Nepal, there's lots of work to do in terms of preparedness, you know, which was your focus, up until now. And then in terms of, you know, so called development, there's a lot to do. you feel like, you might come back and contribute to Nepal at some later time? Do you feel like you're going when things are on the way up or on the way down? Like, how do you feel about leaving Nepal behind? Not so much on a personal family basis, but as a, a country where you worked you contributed to, you know, trying to make things better.

Prem: 22:42

Well, I mean, I want to come back. I want to contribute. I mean Nepal needs more people working on a different sector, you know, but I'm, I'm at the same time proud myself that I've been part of historical changes. I mean, I worked a lot behind the scene kind of thing, you know. so many work, we did, but, the needs are huge, you know, and there is a transition on a different front, on the socioeconomic front, on a cultural front, on the development side. Nepal is in a transition, I would say, because, you know, the aspirations are also high, Definitely I want to contribute a lot, but at the same time, I want to at least look, you know, beyond Nepal, what is happening and expand my horizon. So that is mainly my motivation. As a global citizen, I want to also be part of, other society, other context, feel it, experience it, so I, I may have a better perspective, you know, or, or different perspective. I want to give you one example. I was in Malawi in 2015, so I was supposed to be there for, I think more than six months. Right after the earthquake, I wanted to come back to Nepal and it was really difficult for me because I was also working there in a humanitarian field so I thought that I should come back and at least, be with people. Whenever there is a need, definitely I will come back and whatever I can contribute, I'm always happy to contribute. So I don't have a long term project moving out of country.

Marty: 24:30

Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. That was a a huge event in the country's history, right? Yeah. And you had the skills to contribute. So I can see how it pulled you back. How do you feel about, I mean, again, the reason we're talking now is really about migration and particularly about out- migration. And, there are some people going out and coming back, but that number is much, much smaller than the people leaving. And so you talked about, you know, wanting to see other cultures and live, not just see, not just be a visitor, but live other cultures and be a global citizen and you can contribute in other places in different ways. So does that mean when you look at Nepal overall and the migration that's happening now do you see it as like a natural part of Nepal's progression and development? There are some people who would look at it and there are some people who look at it and say, Oh my God, so many people are leaving. The country's losing its best resources. What are we going to do? How do you, how do you feel about that? How would you react to that kind of statement now that you're one of the people going?

Prem: 25:40

No, I see it as a positive phenomena. the reference point is my own life. When I was child very few people used to visit Kathmandu and they used to say going to Nepal. So it was like, maybe people walk like two days to Dhangadhi. From Dhangadhi, traveling across the border, taking train, either coming to Birganj or Nepalganj because there was no bridge over the Karnali River. We have our own dialect, Dhoteli. I never heard Nepali during that time right like 40 years ago. And then if you see now, a lot of Nepali song, you know, Nepali speaking, even in a village, you know, there is now less, kind of decreasing trend of people going to seasonal labor migration to India. Even for treatment, they come to Kathmandu. So there is this, you know, integration, with own country. Earlier, it was quite isolated you know, exposure, migration, moving from one place to another is exposure, you know, even, it may promote, it usually promote humanity, connecting with other human beings, looking things differently. If I look my now daughter, her exposure, I mean, through textbook or through television or internet, even meeting different culture in a school. So they, they see it as completely normal thing. But for me back then even coming across another culture was shock. Oh, so yeah, migration is positive, if you see from a development side, from whole human development part, exposure, knowledge, broadly humanity; promoting humanity and, you know, connecting with other human beings is quite positive. Definitely it has another side, on a labor, on the skill set,, how we deal with migration is important. But, yeah, we should promote migration.

Marty: 27:48

Okay. Well,, thanks again for taking the time today when you're so busy and you're on, on the cusp of making a big move. I hope that all goes well your, your actual move there and then, finding your feet once you get there. And like I said, let's stay in touch and have a chat, soon after you're there. And I'm sure, you know, this will be a plus for Afghanistan and a plus for you personally. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to hearing,, what you find there and what you learn there. I'm sure they'll miss you here in, in Nepal, but, like you said, there's lots, lots of work to be done, and you'll still be contributing. So, thanks again.

Prem: 28:27

Thank you very much. Very pleased to be with you. And a lot of, reflection for me as well. This conversation has been quite rich.

Marty: 28:37

Thanks for listening to this first episode of Nepal Now On The Move. I'm eager to hear what you think of the new format: the show's opening, the music, even our new logo. DM me on Instagram, where we are, NepalNowPod. The show is also on Facebook and LinkedIn. Sorry, I gave up on X due to Elon Musk's shenanigans a few months ago, so NepalNow has also abandoned the former Twitter. In the next episode, we'll talk to Sushma, who reluctantly left her children and her village in Nepal's Karnali region to earn much needed cash in Kuwait, but returned just months into her time there. I'll talk to you next time.