Being a migrant in Trump's US - journalist Tanka Dhakal

Hi everyone. Today we're speaking with Tanka Dhakal, a journalist who’s currently doing a Master’s degree in the US. He’ll tell us about how the targeting of migrants in that country affected a city council meeting he was reporting on. But what I think is even more interesting is Tanka’s personal reaction to that meeting. 

But before we get to that, I want to let you know that you can now support Nepal Now with a monthly subscription. This is totally voluntary, but if you want to do it the cost starts at 3 US dollars a month, up to $10. You choose the amount. The money will help defray my costs for making the show. For now, you can subscribe only by credit card, which I know isn’t possible for everyone – if you really want to support us and don’t have a credit card let me know and we can work out a mobile money transfer. Depending on where you’re listening to this, you might see a link in the episode notes called Support the Show, under the resources heading. Click on that. Otherwise, go to nepalnowpod.buzzsprout.com, then click on Subscribe to see your options. 

Welcome to Nepal Now: On the Move. My name is Marty Logan. This is the podcast that talks to some of the hundreds of thousands of people migrating from — and sometimes to — this small country surrounded by global giants China and India. Months later we try to reach out again to find out if reality in their new, temporary, home is meeting expectations. Occasionally we call in an expert to try and better understand all of this movement. 

Back to today’s episode. You’ve probably heard about the list of 1,300-plus names of undocumented Nepalis who are supposed to be deported from the US. I heard a rumour last week that about 100 have already been returned, but there’s been no confirmation. I think what Tanka’s account makes clear is that you don’t need to be undocumented to be living in fear in the US today. 

A couple of notes before we start: Tanka mentions that Nepalis have paid 50 lakh to 70 lakh to travel to the US illegally. That’s roughly $36,000 - $50,000. I’ve heard of people paying even more. He also talks about university students with DACA status. Known also as ‘dreamers’, those are undocumented people who entered the US as minors. 

Resources

Article - US to deport 1,365 Nepalis

Chapters

• 4:08 Tanka's early life
• 7:42 Early days as a journalism student in the US
• 10:16 Reporting on a particular local government meeting
• 15:22 How international students are affected
• 18:40 Tanka's internal reaction to the targeting of migrants
• 20:56 How the targeting of migrants might affect Tanka's work
• 26:37 Will Nepalis continue chasing the 'American dream'?

Transcript

tanka dhakal: 0:00

And then I had a very strange opportunity to witness the impact and then the fear of I think possibly being targeted and then how these communities are trying to protect themselves and then especially their child.

marty: 0:30

Hi, everyone. Today, we're speaking with Tanka Dhakal, a journalist who's currently doing a master's degree in the US. He'll tell us about how the targeting of migrants in that country affected a city council meeting he was reporting on. But what I think is even more interesting is Tanka's personal reaction to that meeting. But before we get to that, I want to let you know that you can now support Nepal Now with a monthly subscription., This is totally voluntary, but if you want to do it, the cost starts at three US dollars a month, up to 10 dollars. You choose the amount. The money will help defray my costs for making the show. For now, you can subscribe only by credit card, which I know isn't possible for everyone if you really want to support us and don't have a credit card, let me know and we can work out a mobile money transfer. Depending on where you're listening to this, you might see a link in the episode notes called Support the show under the Resources heading. Click on that. Otherwise, go to nepalnowpod(dot)buzzsprout(dot)com to see your options. Welcome to Nepal. Now on the move. My name is Marty Logan. This is the podcast that talks to some of the hundreds of thousands of people migrating from, and sometimes to, this small country surrounded by global giants China and India. Months later, we try to reach out again to find out if reality in their new temporary home is meeting expectations. Occasionally, we call in an expert to try and better understand all of this movement. Back to today's episode. You've probably heard about the list of 1, 300 plus names of undocumented Nepalis, who are supposed to be deported from the US. I heard a rumour last week that about a hundred have already been returned, but there's been no confirmation. I think what Tanka's account makes clear is that you don't need to be undocumented to be living in fear in the US today. A couple of notes before we start. Tanka mentions that Nepalis have paid 50 lakh to 70 lakh to travel to the U. S. illegally. That's roughly$36, 000 to$50, 000. I've heard of people paying even more. He also talks about university students with DACA status, D A C A. Known also as Dreamers, those are undocumented people who entered the US as minors. Please listen now to my chat with Tanka Dhakal. Tanka Dhakal, welcome to Nepal Now podcast.

tanka dhakal: 3:31

Thank you so much.

marty: 3:33

Nice to see you after a long time.

tanka dhakal: 3:36

Yes, it's been a long and then I'm also happy to talk to you.

marty: 3:41

Great. We are here today to talk about migration and the US and especially what's been happening in the last couple of weeks under Donald Trump's government. And you are in the US and you're a very observant journalist, so that's why I'm calling on you. But before we get to that part, tell us a little bit about your background and your story up until now where you were born, where you grew up and all the interesting stuff.

tanka dhakal: 4:09

First I want to do one quick disclosure to listener. Marty is my mentor. So that's full disclosure. Now my introduction. I grew up in Chitwan, Meghauli. I did my schooling over there. Since this podcast is about migration, I think my migration started when I was 15 years old. I did my high school over there in my village and then I moved to district headquarter of Chitwan, Bharatpur, for my higher studies. I studied in Chitwan uh, up on[to] my Bachelor's degree. And then another layer of migration happened I moved to Kathmandu to pursue my Master's at Tribhuvan University. And then I studied at, uh, Tribhuvan University and working at work as a reporter in Kathmandu. When I, um. look after[back on] my whole journey, I think that sense of belongingness was not anywhere, but yes, I grew up in Chitwan, which is really good it's around buffer zone area of national park. So I miss. I knew I wanted to be a journalist when I was in a sixth grade, I guess, but I was not able to study journalism even though I wanted to because, fortunately or, unfortunately, I was the brightest one of kid to my school and then they wanted me to pursue physics. I did that for plus two and then I was not that was not my path and I switched my study to social science. I think in between I tried to go to journalism school within Tribhuvan University and then for some reason they were not allowing me to get journalism degree because I did not have journalism background, education background. So I settled in social science, sociology, and rural development. And that back, uh, desire to go to journalism school was there. And now I'm doing after so many years, I'm back to school and it's a different kind of school It is uh, similar in many aspect and it is completely different in many aspect. I was a student of uh, very lecture focused education system there. Here, maybe it is because of the graduate level, it's a very discussion focus and, um, we didn't get specify books or something like that. There will be a outline of a syllabi, but It's up to you, uh, up to a student and it's a collaboration between a student and professors.

marty: 6:58

Okay, great. Thank you. And you are now in the US, if I didn't say that earlier. You moved there last year, to study, so tell us about that.

tanka dhakal: 7:09

Yes. And then from Kathmandu, I'm here in the US. Right now I'm staying in, uh, Indiana, Bloomington. I'm pursuing MS in investigative journalism at Indiana University. It's my second semester. I came last year fall semester.

marty: 7:28

Okay, great. Quite a lot of migration in your short story already. I'm sure there will be more. Okay. So you arrived last year, August, September roughly.

tanka dhakal: 7:43

Yes last August, mid August, I moved from Kathmandu to Bloomington. That was a quite a journey. It's almost 24 hour travel and from one time zone to completely another time zone and, uh, one kind of environment to completely another environment. But it was the choice I made to pursue journalism degree. First few months was like, uh, imposter syndrome was there because I was like coming back to school after so many years, and then in a very different environment. Even though I had Uh, sense of confident that I can do good but because of the environment uh, impostor syndrome was there maybe I could not make it or something like that. But right now I'm after one semester and then I, thankfully I did kind of good. So now I'm in a settled mood too. I can do it. I can find my way within this, uh, university system too.

marty: 8:51

Okay. Well, that's great. Congratulations that first of all, you stuck with your original desire way long ago to become a journalist. And number two, that you're finding your way there in the US under that completely different society and university system, as you said. And, speaking of a different society, it's changed a lot since you arrived, obviously, and especially in the last couple of weeks, since Trump and his administration came to power. So I know that you've had some observations about things that have happened under Trump, and you've seen how they're affecting people. Tell me a little bit about that. There was one anecdote in particular I think you'd gone to City Hall.

tanka dhakal: 9:40

Yes. Things are changing within the university. There are a lot of, at least in graduate level masters and PhD there are a lot of international students even though, uh, they are, very you know, good position legally they have all document and everything but the sense of uncertainty or a sense of differences is there within university students. And, as you mentioned, I'm taking this semester one course called public affairs reporting. And, in this course our professor wants us to go to, local government meetings and observe that and report from that meetings. And I attended a few of City Hall meeting of uh, Bloomington Council Last week I went to a commission called Hispanic and Latin Affairs Council, under Monroe County, Bloomington. And they were discussing about how to support immigrant family who are either in fear or in loads of information about migration, mass deportation, maybe ICE, enforcement official will come after them, or something like that. So much was happening within specifically Hispanic and Latin community, so they decided to come together, to discuss about how to support or where to go from here. Nothing is happening in Bloomington. It's a very, politically liberal, because of the university, town. It's a small town, but the fear is there. Among the council member, one of, them he shared his story, how he navigated his journey of being illegal, or undocumented immigrants. And then when he was undocumented, how he tries to hide that status from his kids because he did not want to let his kids know,'oh, my dad is undocumented and might impact. Or police will come after us', or something like that. And one day, his younger son overheard him talking with a lawyer about his documentation status. It's been years, and still, according to him, his younger son is afraid of police. And then he shared a very it felt very emotional and then tragic line. He was like,'I also have that kind of fear, even though they born here and then they are US citizen, but they have my last name. That's why I feel like somebody will come after me. So we need to do more and then we need to find a way to help immigrant family, especially how to, deal[with] all this information overflow and then how to protect children's psychological health'. When I went to cover that meeting which deals particularly about a specific community, which community happens to be migrant heavy or tend to have more migrants they are the elected members made me realize, oh, things are gone too far, especially from the psychological impact aspect. And even after coming back to that meeting, I had to file my, assignment story by the midnight. And I was like, I didn't know what happened, but it was different. And then I had a very strange opportunity to witness the impact and then the fear of I think, possibly being targeted and then how these communities are trying to protect themselves and then especially their child. So that's the anecdote and then that's the, I think, migration story and then how that migration leads to all this kind of uncertainty and then possible, psychological toll, and not only to parents, but also the young children.

marty: 14:19

That is very different because we we expect we're going to hear more stories about raids and people being put in planes or however now they're talking about sending people to Guantanamo Bay. We're expecting those stories of physical deplacement and deportation, but this is much different, this is all about a psychological state.

tanka dhakal: 14:42

Mmm hmm.

marty: 14:43

it sounds like there in Bloomington the chances of something physical happening and people being pushed out or pulled out are at the moment, not as high as in many other places. I know probably can happen anywhere now, right? But just that, as you say, that It's a palpable fear that people have that they're carrying around with them, even if they're documented, no longer undocumented people would still have that fear. And it sounds like that's very different than anything you've seen on campus so far, right?

tanka dhakal: 15:19

It's totally different. Within campus, being a student is maintaining your legal immigration status and having back and forth discussion with, international student service office and professors everything is there. And then not being, documented at least for, us it's not a problem. But I know a lot of undocumented or DACA status students might be there. I was looking at one, social media content in Arizona State University. There is a protest going on to deport or target DACA or undocumented student. Yeah, that kind of things are happening at other schools, but as far as I know, within my school the media school international students are there, but the discussion is not like what I witnessed when I was at City Hall to report on this Hispanic and Latin community. It was totally different. It made me think about this, immigration story from different lens or different light.

marty: 16:31

Right. And what about Nepalis in particular? I don't know if there are any that you're friendly with in your school or at the university in general, or just the wider community. Have you heard about any Nepalis who are affected or just talk to any Nepalis who are worried maybe?

tanka dhakal: 16:49

I did not have the opportunity to meet with Nepali community here because in Bloomington a very small Nepali community is there. I know there is one professor at English department who is Nepali and there are a few doctoral or master's students who are Nepali, but I did not have opportunity to meet or get together with them because I am doing journalism and then there is a very rare chance of having so many journalism or media students from Nepal. I know there are science focused students in chemistry, biology, geology department, but not much in social science. Having said that, as a reporter, we report about how American dream, uh, led so many Nepali community to spend 50 lakhs to 70 lakhs just to get here, uh, not in a legal route. May be that people who came here from that, route and people who are working here, I assume definitely underlining fear or, that psychological toll or uncertainty is definitely there.

marty: 18:12

And it sounds like for the most part, the students who came through a regular route like yourself, documented let's call it are, fine—you haven't heard of anyone being affected. Have you had any anxiety at all about being approached by someone? Or are you confident that even if you're approached by whoever, you have all your papers, you can prove exactly what you're doing there and it will all be straightforward.

tanka dhakal: 18:42

I'm not afraid or I didn't have that kind of,'oh, somebody will approach me and ask my documentation' or something like that. But what I was experiencing was I think more in a emotional or psychological level after that meeting because I know why I'm here. And then the process I know. But I was trying to make sense why I'm feeling like that. And then I came up with, I think reasoning behind it. Back in Nepal. I'm a male[from the] Brahmin community. But that part is not minority, right? That being marginalized aspect is not there. But I have another aspect of being marginalized, a minority I belong to queer community and, being queer is another level of hurdle. That kind of underlying minority[status] was there. And then.. when I came here, I'm a immigrant, I'm a international student. I'm in a complete different cultural setting, environment. When I was trying to make sense, oh, maybe that's the reason I'm experiencing, that being minority, how, It feels within you.

marty: 19:54

You said there are a lot of minority students or international students is how you put it, but do you talk with other students about this as well?

tanka dhakal: 20:05

There are a few student group. We share information and news, and there will be a thread of discussion, obviously. And then when we get a chance to meet with each other, sometimes every other students have this kind of underlining uncertainty or[wonder] what is going on and oh, maybe things will not go well for us too. I didn't say fear, but concern is there within, students too.

marty: 20:40

Is this overall experience you're having, is it something that you want to examine more closely through your reporting work? Have you felt yourself kind of shifting focus maybe, or somehow your work being affected?

tanka dhakal: 20:57

I definitely want to, um, explore more about cause I'm really passionate about psychological health. And then, uh, my primary reporting area is environment, climate and community. But at the same time, I was doing reporting about migration and uh, psychological health. Migration because my family, my brother, uh, spend more than like 10 years of his active life in, Gulf country, Qatar, I guess. Yeah. Because of that, I was, I think, interested in migration story. I was doing reporting around psychological health. Now I'm thinking about doing some reporting on how all this news cycle about immigration and deportation is impacting especially the immigrant community and their children. And possibly hopefully, uh, there will be other stories, too. But yes, I'm trying to look at possible stories around, immigration and its impact to the immigrant community.

marty: 22:02

To kind of step back and look at your experience more broadly, you've been there for about six months, and I know that it was quite an accomplishment to get where you are, to be accepted at the school and obviously you're proud of that accomplishment. Now with everything that's happening, do you find yourself wondering,'should I have come, should I be in this place at this time'? Because I guess in a way you do have a choice. Although it would be very unusual to stop and come back to Nepal, but there is a choice. I don't know, how do you feel about being there at this moment, I guess, compared to when you arrived?

tanka dhakal: 22:44

I don't feel, uh, different or why I'm here in this time because this is what I wanted to do. I'm, I'm, trying to, uh, pursue, uh, revived when I was doing my fellowship, Alfred Friendly Press fellowship, in 2022 with Wisconsin Watch, Wisconsin Center for Investigative Journalism. At that time I was there for six months and then I saw how a journalism student and professor come together and then work together and I was like,'Oh, this is what means to go to journalism school'. And then afterward I tried to apply for school and then I'm here. So I didn't have a second thought,'Oh, why, I came here this time'? But, I do feel I have opportunity to, uh, uh, experience, at the same time being vulnerable about myself too. So, I think it will, uh, ultimately help me to understand. Um, this migration story in a broader lens, but again, it's in a personal level. So I didn't say it's an opportunity because people are, uh, dealing with their psychological toll is really hard. But I'm trying to, I'm thinking about utilizing this very difficult, uh, process to gain more empathy and then pursue that empathy in my reporting, I guess.

marty: 24:27

Right, so if I can put it another way, as a migrant journalist, journalism student, you have a different perspective and an additional perspective, maybe, than American born journalists, journalism students who are there as well. You're seeing this through an additional lens than maybe many of your peers are at the moment.

tanka dhakal: 24:55

Yes and then I think that will help me to have empathetic storytelling. Not only about the migration or immigration story, but also for all the kinds of social or societal issue. And then journalism is all about telling story of community and telling a story, reaching out the vulnerable community who are trying to find their way. So I think even though I did not want it to happen anything to anyone, it's a time to observe and then time to, I guess, uh, be more empathetic.

marty: 25:31

Okay, I, get that. So now putting on your reporter hat, I'll ask you to be, you know, an analyst and give me your expert opinion of course, many Nepalis dream of going to the US, right. There's the, uh, every year there's the lottery for the visas and, and all of that. Do you think what's happening now and I know it's still early days so we're not exactly sure what's going to happen, but it doesn't look positive for migration from Nepal to the US or from many places to the US do you think this is going to dissuade people from actually pursuing that dream of trying to get to the US? Will the average Nepali think,'Well it's crazy what's happening there now and this new government has changed things so much and there's so much animosity and vilification of immigrants that we don't want to go and we'll apply to go to Australia or the U. K. or somewhere else'. What do you think?

tanka dhakal: 26:37

Definitely it it will impact the thought process. Definitely it's going to impact whoever trying to pursue a quote unquote American dream, they will maybe have second thought about it. But, I didn't have that much hope because of this whole migration trained or aspiration to come to, it. The US will, go down or sidelined because we know for four years, 16, 17 to 20, uh, there was this administration and there was a deportation and then family separation was there, uh, very brutal images were there, but still people were coming here. And within Biden administration too deportation was happening. In fact, Biden deported more immigrants than Trump. The way they did was different. So the very, open and, uh, very, uh, in a way, uh, demonizing way of deportation will have impact for a instant, but I don't think it will impact that aspiration to move to US because as I know you are very passionate about migration and then you have reported stories about it Nepal's whole societal setting is so ingrained in migration, whether it is to the Gulf or Malaysia, Australia, Japan, Korea, America. So, given that, uh, background, I didn't think whole picture will be changed. But for some time maybe people will think twice.

marty: 28:30

Yep. I think you're right, actually. It would take a lot for people to outright reject the option of going to the US and maybe some of these other countries you named as well, some of the other top destinations. So yeah, I think you're probably correct, unless something extremely drastic happens and continues happening through the four years of the administration and all we can say for now is we'll see what happens.

tanka dhakal: 28:57

Yeah.

marty: 28:59

Okay, those are my questions. Do you have anything else you want to add that we didn't touch on?

tanka dhakal: 29:07

I don't have, thank you for giving me this opportunity. I was always in a backside of microphone, asking the stories about migration, how it is impacting families or, in a positive or negative way. So it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

marty: 29:26

My pleasure, and I'm happy, you know, to have been the first one to interview you on this. I don't think it'll be the last one you did great. And, as always, really nice talking to you, and hopefully we can do it again soon. Thanks again to Tanka Dhakal for sharing his observations and feelings about the targeting of migrants in the US. You can send feedback or an idea for a future episode by clicking on the link at the top of our show notes. You can also message Nepal Now on social we're@nepalnowpod on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook. Or email me at nepalnowpod(at)gmail.com. I'll talk to you next time.